tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32809541.post5846722774681266435..comments2024-01-01T00:26:05.685-05:00Comments on Hezbos In YOUR Backyard: Chabad's Last MissionUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32809541.post-53061089374428972182012-03-08T09:43:18.860-05:002012-03-08T09:43:18.860-05:00therefore the rebbe did not dietherefore the rebbe did not dieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32809541.post-27341117690041361822012-03-05T19:27:56.803-05:002012-03-05T19:27:56.803-05:00auoman - also here you can see the issue of If he&...auoman - also here you can see the issue of If he's from the dead: Talmud Yerushalmi, Brachot, Perek 2, Halachah 4, (daf 17, bottom). See Pnei Moshe there clearly say what Rashi above made seem slightly ambiguous with his explanation of כגון.in the vanguardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11796434751654291581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32809541.post-59110972871226565762012-03-05T13:18:22.495-05:002012-03-05T13:18:22.495-05:00auoman - Regarding the Rambam in 11:4, "And i...auoman - Regarding the Rambam in 11:4, "And if he did not succeed...."; You raise a good question. And you are forcing me do some homework. I learned about this some 20 years ago. But for now, here is a quick, but not an elaborate answer:<br /><br />"Did not succeed" would include death, would it not? But because the Rambam ADDS the words "OR WAS KILLED" - shows that death itself is NOT included in "Did not succeed".<br /><br />As long as while he was alive, the man was held to his status of "Chezkat Moshiach", that is, as long as he did not lose this status during his lifetime, he still retains that status! Because he never lost it during his lifetime. <br /><br />As for Rashi in 98b, I think you misinterpret Rashi with your explanation of what כגון means.in the vanguardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11796434751654291581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32809541.post-47533098179520042762012-03-05T12:15:57.911-05:002012-03-05T12:15:57.911-05:00Here is the Rashi's explanation of the gemora ...Here is the Rashi's explanation of the gemora in Sanhedrin 98b:<br /><br />אי מן חייא הוא כגון רבינו הקדוש.<br />If from the living he, example would be Rabeinu HaKodesh<br /><br /> אם משיח מאותן שחיים עכשיו ודאי היינו רבינו הקדוש<br />If Moshiach from those that are living now, for sure he is Rabeynu HaKodesh<br /> דסובל תחלואים וחסיד גמור הוה כדאמרינן בבבא מציעא דף פה<br />That he bears patiently sickness and he is completely pious as is said in Bava Metsia <br /> ואם היה מאותן שמתו כבר היה דניאל איש חמודות<br />And if he was from those that have already died, he would has being the Desirable Daniel<br /> שנדון ביסורין בגוב אריות וחסיד גמור היה<br />That he was judged with troubles of [being thrown] into lion dean and was completely pious <br /> והאי כגון לאו דווקא<br />And this [word] “כגון” - “example would be” is not to be taken literally <br />[Rashi by saying “The word “example would be” not to be taken literally” means that Daniel and Rabeynu haKodest are not the examples of Moshiach, but rather if the Moshiach was destined to come in the generations that have already died, then he would literally be Daniel. And if the Moshiach was destined to come in this generation, i.e. in the generation of Rav, then he would be Rabeynu HaKodesh. That is, Rashi explains that the Gemora means to say that in the previous generations the most fit for Moshiach was Daniel, and in this generation the most fit for Moshiach is Rabeynu HaKodes. Gemora does not mean that Daniel, or any body else from the dead would come back as a Moshiach, but rather it means that amongst the past candidates Daniel was the most fit for this job, and from the present candidates Rabeynu HaKodesh is the most fit]<br />[Rashi continues:] <br /> ל"א כגון רבינו הקדוש<br />Another explanation of “the example would be Rabeynu HaKodesh"<br /> כלומר אם יש דוגמתו בחיים<br />Saying, if there is his [Mishiach’s] example amongst living<br /> היינו רבינו הקדוש<br />This would be Rabeynu Hakodesh<br /> ואם דוגמא הוא למתים<br />And if Moshiach to be compared to the dead once<br /> היינו כגון דניאל איש חמודות:<br />This would be for example Daniel the Desirable man.<br />[In his second explanation Rashi points out that if you want to find somebody who possess the same characteristics as the future Moschiach will possess, then amongst the living it would be Rabeynu HaKodesh and amongst the dead it would be Daniel. Again, according to this, the future Moshiach will not be Rabeynu HaKodesh, or Daniel, or anybody from the dead, but rather, the future Moshiach would possess character traits similar to Daniel and Rabeynu HaKodesh]aoumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07464929396820682326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32809541.post-8684651858237562312012-03-05T10:47:30.496-05:002012-03-05T10:47:30.496-05:00To in the vanguard:
You are saying that there is d...To in the vanguard:<br />You are saying that there is distinction between "died" and "being killed". This is falsification of the words of Rambam. Read carrefully, Rambam says:<br />"If he did not succeded till this [i,e, till all the tassks that Rambam described above], or got killed"<br />Rambam said that either one of the two things can disqualify a person from being the Moshiach<br />1) Did not succeded till this<br />or<br />2) Got killed<br /><br />Now, "did not succed till this" means did not accomplish messianic tasks and died.<br />But if "the second comming" was true<br />the phrase of Rambam "did not succed till this" would be meaningless because you always can succed "second time around".<br />To prove this more, at the end of this halaha Rambam uses word "died" explicitly. Rambam ends up:<br />"VaHarey Hu KeCholl malhey beys Dovid haSleymim veHaKsheyrim sheMeysu." - "and behold he is like all kings of the house od David, complete once and kosher, that died." Pay attention, Rambam says word "sheMeysu" - "that died", and not killed. Thus, the destinction between dying and being killed is something that was made up to tailor Rambam to promote second comming agenda.<br />As far as the gemorain Sanhedrin on 98B, this is also missinterpretation. Bezrat HaShem, bli neder, I will bring a word by word translation of Rashi on this gemora in my next post which I got from my rav who is a Dayan and a Talmid Hoham.aoumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07464929396820682326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32809541.post-76440214086217403882012-03-04T08:50:40.213-05:002012-03-04T08:50:40.213-05:00the rebbe did not diethe rebbe did not dieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32809541.post-37377070340653048402012-03-03T21:13:22.826-05:002012-03-03T21:13:22.826-05:00auoman: Being KILLED is NOT the same thing as &quo...auoman: Being KILLED is NOT the same thing as "DYING". Therefore the Gemorrah says what it says. As far as prophecy being eliminated, the Rebbe and others addressed this point many times. It does NOT mean eliminated, because prohecy always exists, only at one point it diminished! But much prophecy has already been witnessed in that two centuries, except among misnagdim, who have no Rebbe to bring them up to date. They are still stuck in the 19th century.<br />See here for more clarification:<br />http://hezbos.blogspot.com/2011/03/chassid-misnagid-barrier-is-melting.htmlin the vanguardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11796434751654291581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32809541.post-64093227331620179202012-03-02T13:02:02.964-05:002012-03-02T13:02:02.964-05:00As far as your claim that Lubaviche Rebbe was a pr...As far as your claim that Lubaviche Rebbe was a profit, you can’t find bigger nascence that this. Prophecy left Israel with the destruction of the first temple. The last profits were those who wore born when the first temple still stood. Prophecy would return to Israel only when the Moshiach comes. But even according to you Moshiach did not come yet, you are awaiting the second coming.aoumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07464929396820682326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32809541.post-489513465010960342012-03-02T13:00:52.139-05:002012-03-02T13:00:52.139-05:00Now, let’s answer to blogger’s “ In the vanguard...Now, let’s answer to blogger’s “ In the vanguard’s” question “what he was supposed to accomplish in this life.”<br />Rambam, in Shoftim, Hilkos Melohim Perek Yud-Alef, Haloha Daled list exactly what the Moshiach should accomplish during his life:<br /><br />Veim Yaamod Meleh Mibeys Dovid Hoge baToro vAseik BeMitsvos keDovid Oviv – and if would arise a king from the house of David, contemplating in Torah and involved in Mitsvos like David his father<br /> KeFi Toro SheBiKsov veSheBal Pe - according to the written and oral Torah<br />VeYoChof kol Yisroel-and force the entire Jewish nation <br />Leyleh Bo uLeHazeyk BiDko - walk in it (in the path of Torah) and keep it (the Torah) precisely <br />VeYiloheym Milhamos HaSheym - and he would fight the wars of HaShem<br />Harey Ze BeHezkas SheHu Moshiach - Behold, this one gets presumption that he is Moshiach.<br />Im oso veHitsliah uVono Mikdosh biMkomo veKibeyts nidhey Yisroeyl - If he has done this and succeeded and build Beys HaMikdosh in its place and gathered the dispersed of Israel<br />Harey Ze Moshiach BeVaday - behold he is Moshiach for sure. <br />ViYisakeyn es HoOlom kulo laAvod es HaShem BeYahad - and he will fix the entire world to serve HaShem together. <br />SheNeemar: Ki Oz EhPoch el Amim sofo beruro likro<br />Kulom beSheym Hashem uLeOvdo shechem ehod (Tsefaniya Gimel, Tez)- As it is sayd: Because then the speech of nations would overturn to clear speech all of them to call in the name of HaShem and serve him as one shoulder<br />VeIm lo HiTsliah ad Ko - but if he did not succeed to this <br />O Neherag - or got killed<br />BeYodua SheEino ze SheHivticho oloyv Toro - It is Sure that this is not the one that the Torah promised.<br />VaHarey Hu ki Chol malhey Beys Dovid Hashleymim veHaKesheyrim - and here it is , he is like all the righteous and kosher kings of the House of David that died.<br />VeLo HeEmido HaKodosh-Boruh-Hu elo LeNasos Bo Rabim - and HaKodosh-BoruhHu set him up for nothing else but to test with him masses.<br />Sheneemar: Umin hamaskilim yiKoshlu litsrof bohem<br />uleBoreyr uleLabeyn ad eys keyts, ki od laMoeyd (Daniel yud alef, lamed hey) – As it is said: And from the once with understanding they will stumble, to melt out (impurities) in them, and to sort out and to whiten till the time of the end, because (there is) more till the time. (Daniel 11, 35)<br />As you can clearly see from Rambam:<br />Just to get a presumption to be a Moshiach, the candidate should force all the Yiden to keep Torah precisely and to fight the wars of HaShem.<br />Last time I checked, at least on this planet, around 90% of Yiden are not observant at all. Also, I did not here of Rebbe fighting any wars of Hashem. Does not sound like Rambam had in mind Mitsva Tank.<br />Rambam continues: if he succeeded in forcing all the Jews to keep the Torah precisely and fought the wars of HaShem and Built BeysHamikdosh in its place and gathered dispersed of Israel, <br />then he is the Moshiach for sure. Last time I checked there is a mask on the temple mountain and at least half of the Jews live outside of Eretz Isroel.<br />Rabbam continues: once he forced all the Jews to keep the Torah precisely and fought the war of HaShem , and rebuild beys HaMikdos, and gathered all the Jews to Israel, he would fix the world to serve HaShem all together. Last time I checked the goym stil hapilly worhip their yoshkas, budas, muhameds and God knows what.<br />Rambam continues: But if he did not succeded to do all of this, i.e died and the work is still not done, or even if he succeeded but got killed, for sure he is not the Moshiach that the Torah promised. In such a case he is just as any other king, righteous and kosher, from the house of David that died, but not the Moshiach.aoumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07464929396820682326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32809541.post-3589183963675931732012-03-02T12:43:18.729-05:002012-03-02T12:43:18.729-05:00First let's answer to bloger MG in regard of R...First let's answer to bloger MG in regard of R' Akiva's believe that Bar-kohba was a Moshiach.<br />R' Akiva believed that Barkohba was a Moshiach only while Bar-Kohba was alive. Once Bar-Kohba died, R' Akiva and the Hahomim new that Bar-Kohba is not a Moshiach. While Bar-Kohba was alive R'Akiva had many grounds to belive that Bar-Kohba was a Moshiach because Bar-Kohba was achieving one victory after the other and, retook Jerusalem, and actually started building of Bes-Hamikdash. But, once Bar-Kohba was killed and did not accomplish messianic mission, R' Akiva and all the Hahomim new right away that Bar Kohba was not a Moshich. <br />Now, you belive that a Rebbe, who died and did not accomplish any of the messianic tasks is a Moschiah. This is heresy, because R' Akiva believed in Bar Kohba Messianic aspirations only during Bar Kohba's life time, and not after Bar Kohbas's death.<br />Here is verbatim words of the Rambam that bring exactly this point. I don’t have Hebrew keyboard, that’s why I would type Hebrew words in English letters and translate.<br />Rambam, Shoftim, Hilkos Melohim Perek Yud-Alef, Haloha Gimel:<br /><br />Ve al yaale al daatho - It should not enter your mind<br />She HaMelah HaMoshiach tsorich laasos osos u movsim - that the King Molshiach needs to make signs and wonders<br />Umehadesh dovorim bo Olom - and renew (make new) things in the world<br />O mehaye meisim ve chayetsey bidvorim eylu - and similar to these things.<br />Ein haDovar cah - this is not so.<br />WeHarey Rabi Akiva hohom godol miHahmey mishno hoyo – and look, Rabbi Akiva was a great sage from the sages of the Mishna<br />VeHu Hoyo nosey keylov shel ben kozivo hameloh - and he was arm-bearer of Ben-Kozivo (Bar-Kohba) the King.<br />VeHu hoyo omeir olov sheHu HaMelah HaMoshiach - and he was (Rabbi Akiva) saying about him (about Bar Kohba) that he is King Moshiach.<br />VeDimo Hu ve chol hahmey doro - and he (R’Akiva) and all the sages of his generation thought<br />SheHu HaMelah HaMoshiach - that he is the King Moshiach<br />Ad SheNeherag BaAvonos - until he was killed for the Sins. [Pay attention to this words of Rambam, tha R’Akiva belived that Bar-Kohba is a moshiach only till Bar Kohba’s death]<br />Keyvon SheNeharag - Once he was killed<br />Noda Lohem SheEino - it became known to them that he is not. [As you can see R’Akiva and sages stopped their believe after bar Kohba died and were not saying that Bar Kohba would finish up during the second coming]aoumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07464929396820682326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32809541.post-17439301400277613882012-03-01T22:16:07.954-05:002012-03-01T22:16:07.954-05:00To aumann,
Believing that someone is Moshiach is ...To aumann,<br /><br />Believing that someone is Moshiach is not heresy. Was Rabbi Akiva heretical because he believed that Bar Kochba was Moshiach? Obviously not. Before you make emotional statements, find your source. Tell me where does it say that believing that the Rebbe, zt'l, or any great tzaddik is Moshiach is heretical? <br /><br />First look at the facts. In Sanhedrin, 98b, it states, "Rav said: If Moshiach is among the living, he is someone like Rabbeinu Hakadosh. If he is among the dead, he is someone like Daniel the Greated Beloved. In the commentaries of Artscroll, it states, Rashi offers two explanations of the Rav's statement: (a) If the Messiah is currently alive he is certainly Rebbi. If the Moshiach is someone who has already died, he is Daniel. (Abarbanel explains that it is possible for the Messiah to be among the resurrected...)(b) If the person who most closely resemblbles the Messiah is alive, it is Rebbi. If that person is among the dead, it is Daniel." <br /><br />So, to say that the Rebbe is Messiah is not heresy at all. The Rebbe was a great tzaddik and a leader of our generation. No one can deny that. He loved all Jews and brought many yidden back to yiddishkeit. And I do remember learning from the Rambam, that this is one of the proofs of Moshiach. And through his shluchim, the Rebbe still is bringing back many yidden.<br /><br />Really the opposite is true. If someone does not believe that Moshiach can come from the dead and be resurrected, then that is apikorsus. <br /><br />It has been written, not sure where, many great tzaddikim will be resurrected before other Jews. So, is it farfetched that one of these tzaddikim just could be Moshiach who just might be the Rebbe?mghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05245545799399040977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32809541.post-72117799997935719962012-03-01T19:27:00.186-05:002012-03-01T19:27:00.186-05:00aoumon - I'll address one of your many false p...aoumon - I'll address one of your many false points.<br /><br />You say, "Anybody can claim he is the Moshiach, and if he did not accomplish what he was supposed to accomplish in this life time, not a problem, you can always clame that he would finish up after he is resurrected, and there is no way to verify this."<br /><br />"Anybody"? We're talking about the Rebbe, who is a prophet. To be a prophet, the Rambam has a huge list of qualifications (Hilchot Yesodei Hatorah 7:7). The "law" you state above is your own law, not anyone else's. We know from the Gemora, Moshiach can be from the "DEAD", which is why one sage named Daniel as the likely candidate. <br /><br />"Anybody"? We're talking about a personality who near Moshe Rabbeinu's level of prophecy (he got it standing up, awake and when he wanted) and is a chacham greater than Moshe Rabbeinu. I ask you for an honest answer - When's the last time you read ANYTHING the Rebbe wrote?<br /><br />"Did not accomplish what he was supposed to accomplish in this life." List for us what he was supposed to accomplish, and tell me which he did not accomplish. <br /><br />Think calmly before you write. P.S. Are you and shloime the same person?in the vanguardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11796434751654291581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32809541.post-32271288823174342412012-03-01T18:06:39.721-05:002012-03-01T18:06:39.721-05:00Dear Yisroel Lazerson,
Rambam clearly writes what ...Dear Yisroel Lazerson,<br />Rambam clearly writes what a person who contends to be a Moshiach has to accomplish in his life time to have a hazaka of Moshiah. And if he did not accomplish it in his life time or got killed, he is not the Moshiach.<br />Rabbi Shnierson did not accomplish any of those tasks and died.<br />Therefore there is nothing to talk about.<br />If second coming was a legitimate believe, then there is no way to check if a person is a real Moshiach or a fraud.<br />Anybody can claim that he is the Moshiach, and if he did not accomplish what he was supposed to accomplish in this life time, not a problem, you can always clame that he would finish up after he is resurrected, and there is no way to verify this.<br />Again, if the second coming was a true concept, then there is no way for Jews to verify who is a false Moshiach and who is a true Moshiach, and as such it cannot be a true concept.<br />Ramban himself used this argument against second coming in his famous dispute.<br />Similarly, for Prophets, there was a test. A prophet had do make a few positive prophesies, and they all had to come true. If not, it was Novi shel Sheker.<br />Basically, Ashem does not want us to believe in anything that you cannot verify. There is a clear test for a prophet, and there is a clear test for a Moshiach.<br />Thus, with an idea of second coming, there is no test for Moshiach. As such, why anyone should believe that Lubavishe Rebe would come back and finish his job.<br />What you are saying basically goes along the lines, believe that Rabbi is the Moshiach, and you should be saved. We already heard this about 2000 years ago, sounds familiar.<br />Also, believe in a false Moshiach is not an innocent believe, but a heresy, and our people had way to much missory and suffering from all those false Masayas.<br />Nobody outside of Chabas itself believes that R' Shnierson was the Moshiach, and everybody but Chabad belives that this is a heresy.aoumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07464929396820682326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32809541.post-91585443706221785992012-03-01T12:14:24.357-05:002012-03-01T12:14:24.357-05:00To Ben -
Here is a link to see where the Rebbe s...To Ben - <br /><br />Here is a link to see where the Rebbe said he was Moshiach.<br /><br />http://www.moshiach.ru/english/moshiach/The-Rebbe-Told-us-That-He-is-Moshiach.htmlYisroel Lazersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13667344876843703089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32809541.post-60498697209865489952012-03-01T12:12:04.865-05:002012-03-01T12:12:04.865-05:00To aouman,
Jews in fact do beleive Moshiach can c...To aouman,<br /><br />Jews in fact do beleive Moshiach can come from past, see Sanhendrin last perek; just shows your ingnorance and hatred.<br /><br />Ironically its you who has been afected by the x-tians! They steal an idea from Torah and you then think it was never Torah's orignial idea.<br /><br />How foolish!<br /><br />Learn before you bash an entire group of Jews. <br /><br /><br />Shameful.Yisroel Lazersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13667344876843703089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32809541.post-89160541563514520402012-02-29T21:01:30.214-05:002012-02-29T21:01:30.214-05:00I adore Chabadniks! I don't espouse to the bel...I adore Chabadniks! I don't espouse to the beliefs of the Rebbe being Moshiach, yet I believe that Chnadniks are very holy yidden. All yidden are holy. We need to daven even more these days that Moshiach comes!Leahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00338022892863788418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32809541.post-13496909177924414702012-02-29T12:42:32.636-05:002012-02-29T12:42:32.636-05:00OK, please give exact language and source of when ...OK, please give exact language and source of when the Rebbe himself said he was Moshiach.<br /><br />Thank you.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14326692290696186619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32809541.post-32183340161957561632012-02-29T10:42:57.522-05:002012-02-29T10:42:57.522-05:00Moshiach Shel Sheker.
Habad Rebe passed away,
did ...Moshiach Shel Sheker.<br />Habad Rebe passed away,<br />did not accomplish any of the tasks of Moshiach. And we don't belive in second commings to finish up what was not done during the first one. If you do belive in second commings of Masayas, please visit you freandly neiborhood church, they belive in preeety muc the same, but don't call it Judaism. Call it let say Habatizmaoumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07464929396820682326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32809541.post-44108173624426509822012-02-29T10:30:59.064-05:002012-02-29T10:30:59.064-05:00i dont think the rebbe said: accept me as moshiach...i dont think the rebbe said: accept me as moshiach, or, tell everyone that im moshiach.<br />we know that he is, but he never started a campaign for that.<br />the campaign was everything else that you postedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com